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Showing posts with label Divorce. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Divorce. Show all posts

Friday, July 11, 2014

How To: The 3 R's of Rebounding

  Resiliency is the ability to rebound effectively. Whether from the loss of a relationship, job, business deal, medical diagnosis, sporting event, or finances, whatever it may be, life is going to knock you down and hand you setbacks from time to time - often when you least expect it, aren't prepared for it, or both.There are many natural tendencies that we have, unhealthy and often harmful ways we tend to try and deal with, or cope when faced with these setbacks or painful situations. If you are going to live a healthy, active life and continue to move forward on your own terms, regardless of circumstances outside of your control, you're going to need to have an effective strategy for bouncing back whenever the universe decides to throw you a change-up. These 3 R's provide an approach to getting back on track, in the most effective and healthy way possible when you're ready, regardless of what has knocked you down.

1. Refocus

The first and most important step to getting back on track when you have been derailed is to refocus. When something outside the norm of what we are used to or expect jolts us and affects us emotionally, it tends to also consume our mental focus. Actually, most of the reason we feel the way we do emotionally is because we are constantly thinking about things through a certain paradigm, or we're stuck on something specific in our head. This leads to us feeling the respective emotions and can leave us in an unproductive, unmotivated, depressed state. Tony Robbins says, "What you focus on, you feel." In other words, your emotional state is a direct reflection of your mental focus. However, we have the ability to change this state by consciously making an effort to constantly refocus the direction of our thoughts about the past events through a different paradigm right now, along with redirecting the focus of our thoughts towards our desired future. More on that later.

2. Regroup

Now I know what you're thinking, "yeah right Ryan, that's easier said than done." And like with most tools and techniques for self improvement and personal growth, you’re absolutely right. It is easier said than done, but it is possible, and fairly simple. The key is P+E+C. Plan + Effort + Consistency = Progress. Having a specific plan, putting forth effort and taking action, on a constant, consistent basis, is the formula for progress in any area of your life. We have all heard the phrase, “time heals all wounds”. Well those "wounds" take a little less time to heal if you’re making an effort to consistently follow a specific plan to get you back on track or headed in a new direction during that "time". So the key becomes what you do with the time that ultimately determines how long it takes those proverbial wounds to heal.

3. Reload

Earlier I mentioned “redirecting the focus of our thoughts towards our desired future”. What I was referring to was a paradigm shift. When you are upset or emotional about an unexpected change in your life, the chances are it has a lot to do with disappointment pertaining to expectations, plans, dreams, etc. You feel upset because there is now an internal conflict - your old ways of viewing, seeing, or thinking about your future do not apply to the new situation you now find yourself in. These feelings of hurt and frustration are magnified by the fact that we are helpless, having absolutely no control over changing past events. Since we cannot change events of the past, we need to refocus our effort on influencing what we do have complete control over, and that is how we perceive the past, how we currently interpret those events, and the meaning we currently give to them. This is all about tweaking your mindset.
The most effective way to deal with an old paradigm is to create a new one and replace it. When trying to change dis-empowering, negative, or irrational thought patterns, it is much easier to substitute them than it is to stop them. First, make an effort to find and give new meaning to those old events, something with a positive spin on it, something that empowers you. Find a way to view it that leaves you feeling like you are more, like you have learned from or benefited from the experience, and have grown as an individual. Second, not only do you need to address your old paradigm, but you need to create a new, more compelling vision of your future, what you want, and where you are headed. This process is critical because moving away from focusing on, and being consumed by past events is exponentially easier when you have a fresh vision that consumes your attention and elicits positive energy along with feelings of excitement and hope. This new vision will become the new focus of your mental and emotional energy, and will give your thoughts a productive place to go moving forward.

  Along with the 3 R’s above, there are four more R’s to consider when you find yourself facing adversity in a rebound situation. The following 4 R’s are things you want to make a conscious effort not to do, and how they can work against you in progressive stages, potentially leading to a mental and emotional roller coaster, that may derail or distract you, and ultimately prevent you from progressing.

Don't:

  Remember things (mental)
 -Sure you will be reminded at times, but intentionally reminiscing will lead to  
  memories about the past that will incite emotions, positive, negative or both.
  ↓

  Remorseful feelings (emotional)
 -Once you begin to experience any emotions or feelings relating to the past you
  may start to think about what you regret.
  ↓

  Regretful thoughts (mental)
 -These thoughts of regret and remorse could include thoughts about what you
   could have or should have done differently.
   ↓

   Relapse of emotions (emotional)
 - If you focus on irrational thoughts about the past you may psych yourself
   into having false hope about the past being different, or worse, you may 
   begin to have thoughts about what you can do now to "fix" the past.

   If you fall into the trap of emotional time travel then the present moment can become distorted and you lose sight of the acceptance that is necessary to remind ourselves of what really is. Not only do you lose sight of the reality that there’s nothing you can do about the past, but you also become distracted from what you can and need to do in the here and now, to not just move forward, but be happy while doing so. This process is designed to serve as a method to move you forward but in a way that focuses centrally on the fact that there is a forward, and life not only goes on, but can be even better than before. It's all about learning from our experiences while remaining focused, disciplined, and consistent, until that way of living becomes your new way of life.

Saturday, September 21, 2013

Love Without Trust?



Can we truly love someone without trusting them? 
Yes. 
Here's how, and why...

 First of all, as I established in my previous blog post titled, "Love part 1: The Difference", it is important to note the distinction between feeling love for someone, and actually loving someone with your actions. We may or may not have feelings of love that accompany our actions and intention to overtly love someone we don't trust. In this post however, I am only going to explore and examine how and why the action of loving someone that we don't trust is not only possible, but dangerous. 
  
  
  The notion of loving someone we don't trust may seem odd or contradictory, but none the less, I believe it is definitely possible, and unfortunately way too common. To help put this possibility in perspective, let me ask you some simple questions to serve as an analogy.

Can you feed someone, and make sure thy eat without trusting them?
Can you take someone to the doctor and see that they are cared for and medically well and healthy without trusting them?
Can you love and care for a wounded pet or animal that you don't trust and fear may bite you?

  If you answered yes to all three questions then you probably get it.
My point is, we can do things like this (above) with and for each other as well if we choose, out of pure love for a person or creature, regardless of whether we trust them or not.
So the simple part of my point, and this post, is that it's possible to love someone you don't trust.
The complex part is that it is this very ability, or tendency, to love without trust, that complicates and prolongs unhealthy relationships. That is where the possibility lends itself to a potentially problematic cycle.
Why is it that we are unable to fully love someone inside a relationship with someone we don't fully trust?

  The problem with being able to love without trust is this: we get in relationships with people because we love them (not a problem), BUT, we also STAY in the relationship because we love them, even AFTER we stop trusting them (problem). That is not healthy.

  So, the first distinction to make here is, just because you CAN love someone that you don't trust, does not mean you can, let alone should, try to be in a healthy, working, relationship with someone you don't trust.
That is the difference, and that is a mistake that is made way too often. "I stayed because I love him." Or "I want to give it another chance because I care about her." How much you care or love someone is really irrelevant when it comes to having a healthy relationship IF there is no trust. You are just going through the motions on auto pilot, playing house, not growing or building anything of substance, inevitably either waiting to get hurt, or waiting to make a mistake (like getting married or having children).

  Inside a relationship, lack of trust complicates and prevents the growth and expansion and maturity of love from ever reaching, or even moving towards its full potential and what it's capable of.
This happens because there is a vulnerability component that is naturally part of any relationship. Healthy relationships are all about being comfortably vulnerable. This comfort increases as trust does.
Not only are we already naturally vulnerable in relationships, but where there is a lack of trust we have predetermined and established a consistent, potential danger of getting hurt, and where there is danger there is distraction, and when we are distracted we are limited in our abilities, including the ability to love fully.

  However, when we care or love someone, we may become blind and unaware of this reality, almost to the point of denial about how much the lack of trust is having a real impact on the magnitude of our love and the relationship. So we tend to push on, and almost try to compensate for the lack of trust and pain by trying to show or "express more love" in a sense. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way.
A common misconception people have when it comes to how and why love and relationships work is that they are under the impression that it's love, and emotions, and passion, and desire, and attraction, and caring, and feelings - that don't just make up, and drive a relationship (which they do to some extent), but that those things are also what will carry a relationship for a lifetime, which they will not! 

  Feelings are doomed without trust. Trust is the key, core component of a relationship that is the over all fabric which holds it together. Trust is a security, and comfort you feel in your soul with someone.
It represents a certain deep level of safety inside of a relationship with other people. And just like with Maslow's hierarchy of needs pyramid, and human needs psychology suggest, after food and water, safety is the most basic primary need we have. We instinctively seek to attain safety as individuals before we do anything else besides eat, even in relationships. When we feel threatened or in danger of being harmed by someone, we will do whatever it takes to find security for our emotions, even if that means investing them in someone else.

  That's why I believe that inside of a relationship with someone we don't trust in our gut, yes it's possible to love, but it is hard to genuinely love someone in a way that you're fully potentially capable of when you have the uncertainty and fear from that lack of trust. Under these circumstances that a lack of trust creates, your primary need is to deal with getting or finding trust, safety, and security, not giving love.
  However, once outside of that relationship, where we feel safe, and the constant danger of potentially getting hurt (whether real or imagined) is not eminent, we then can objectively see and look exclusively at how we feel and whether we want to care for someone or love them, and possibly if we still want to be loved by them. At this point is where the problem often occurs.
  We break up with someone or end things when either the pain or fear stemming from lack of trust or connection gets so intense, that it seems and feels stronger and more real than the positive things we feel for the other person, to the point that it blurs things and inhibits us from comfortably loving normally, and naturally. But, once we break up or end things, that act or action in and of itself of ending or stopping or getting out of and being separate from "danger", entails and implies that we are now safer or relieved of that threat It is with this hallucination that we are then susceptible to becoming overwhelmed by the experience or opportunity of now being able to see and focus strictly and completely on the positive feelings we have for the person we still love, without the threat or fear of danger or getting hurt. This is when we go back.

 So you see, the danger in being able to love someone while not trusting them can lead us to stay in an unhealthy relationship, or return to one after leaving. This tendency is not only hard for most people to recognize, but equally as difficult for most to accept. Why and how specifically trust is absent can be at the root of the problem when it comes to recognition and acceptance, therefore complicating any form of healthy intervention or resolution.   
  Regardless of why trust has been damaged or lost, it is imperative that the issue of trust (or lack of) is not only addressed, but either resolved, or understood in a way that includes each person being willing to take responsibility and be accountable for using defined, concrete skills, strategies and steps that are agreed upon by all parties, in an attempt to provide a realistic opportunity for meaningful lasting change and healthy growth.This may or may not require assistance from a relationship specialist, therapist, counselor, or coach. As for the issue of trust, see below for some bonus info.

Two common misconceptions people have about trust:

1. The reason we don't trust is because trust has been broken or lost.
  Yes, lack of trust can come from being achieved and then broken, or lost. But mistrust can also come from someone who never attained it in the first place. Do not assume that trust issues within a relationship are always the result of an occurrence or incident that took place between the people currently in a relationship.
  When it comes to trust, you need to understand that it is possible for people to bring baggage and insecurities into the relationship which prevent and handicap trust from ever truly having a chance. A persons lack of, or failure to trust, can come from their perceptions, assumptions, and beliefs, and not necessarily anything tangible.           
  Discovering or recognizing if any of this is the case, and then taking steps to address it as soon as possible, either individually or together, is critical. That being said, there are things you can do to guard against these "barriers of beliefs" as much as possible, and do your part to help create a trustworthy connection. 
  One, always be mindful of whether or not anything you are doing or saying could be perceived as untrustworthy. Don't wait to hear from your partner or for them to react, be mindful of your actions and have their feelings in mind. Don't assume that just because something is ok with you or you wouldn't mind, that will or should feel the same. Getting to know more about your partners, expectations, beliefs, and standards when it comes to relationships should help shed some light on these things. But don't walk on eggshells, at the end of the day you should be able to be comfortable being yourself. 
  Second, if your partner does do or say something that you perceive as disrespectful or untrustworthy, based on your own expectations, beliefs, standards or "rules", always express and communicate it to them as soon as possible. Again, if you have never communicated it to them before, don't assume they know. Just because you think they should know, doesn't mean they do, and it doesn't mean you shouldn't, and aren't obligated to tell them, because you are. Part of being in a relationship involves learning about each other, and often that requires us to teach. Tell them how it makes you feel, and why, if possible. If you have a hard time talking about your feelings, write it down, but be sure they know, and asap! Never hold back or bury something they did or said that hurts, concerns, or worries you in any way. Don't hold back from expressing or communicating your needs and concerns about something that affects you, simply because you think it's obvious or that they should know. Along with trust, communication is the most important ingredient to the survival of a healthy relationship. 
  Doing these two things from the very beginning of the relationship will at least help promote and facilitate the opportunity for healthy trust to be established and grow over time.

2. Cheating is the primary reason or way to lose or break someones trust.
  Again, cheating is obviously going to cause significant problems and issues inside of a relationship overall, specifically when it comes to trust. Being faithful is probably what most people correlate to trust. However, lack of trust DOES NOT automatically equal or imply fear of cheating. There are other ways or reasons we may fail to gain, or lose trust inside of a relationship that have a detrimental impact...it's not always about "cheating". 
  Being faithful does not just apply to monogamy or exclusivity, as far as having one sexual partner or mate. It also applies to meaning what you say, and being faithful to your word. It involves keeping your promises, and loving someone unconditionally, with supportive, consistent actions and a dedicated regard for their emotional well being, regardless of the external circumstances in your own life. 
  Maybe it's your partners intentions you don't trust. If you are dedicated to being something or someone to another person and are invested, you want to know, and to see proof, that they are dedicated and have meaningful intentions for you, and the relationship as well. This validation and the belief in ones intentions will not come from just simply the expression of words and actions, but for words and actions to be meaningful, they need to be C-Squared: Congruent and Consistent.
  Which leads me to another simple but very necessary form of trust in a relationship that involves relying on being informed of how our partner is feeling and what they are thinking as it pertains to the relationship. This requires being open and expressing ourselves to our partner. If we don't feel or believe that we are able to depend on our partner opening up to us so that we have the opportunity to know whats going on with our partner internally and emotionally, then we will not only begin to lose trust in their tendency or ability to communicate, but also in their intentions with us inside the relationship, and possibly even worse, maybe in how much they care about us.    

  In conclusion, don't let how much you care, or your feelings of love determine whether or not you should stay in a relationship and continue to express them. Rather, ask yourself if there is a strong enough foundation of communication and trust to feel safe with that person and let that be the gauge for whether or not it is a relationship worthy of continuing to invest your love. Getting out of an unhealthy relationship does not mean you don't love someone or never cared for them. It simply means that you love yourself enough to find a safe place to live emotionally, even if that means outside of a relationship with someone you love. 


Sunday, March 3, 2013

Reverse Psychology


You'll be fine...in just a short period of time you won't miss me, or need me at all. You won't totally regret dealing with things the way you did or wish you could go back and handle them differently after realizing all that you lost. Not at all. 
Because you're absolutely sure that there is someone out there so much better for you, and that you will meet someone who has so much more to offer than I do, a much more complete, well rounded guy, who's intentions you will know of and trust immediately, and who you will feel safer with, a lot quicker than you did with me. Someone you are super comfortable with, and can be yourself with...the you that no one else knows or gets to see.

Yeah, you'll meet someone who is a better teacher, a better partner, a better friend than I was, all in one, and who is more responsible, and a deeper thinker than me, and more sentimental than I am. I'm sure you will meet a guy who does more of the little things then I did, and is way more thoughtful than I was...whose eyes are more honest than mine are, whose touch is more sincere than mine is, whose raw emotions are more genuine, and easier to see. You will surely meet someone who is a much better listener than I am, who pays more attention to every delicate detail of your beautiful being, and who admires and appreciates the little quarks that make you who you are as much as I did...someone way more in tune to your mood, and who notices when something is on your mind or when you’re not being yourself because something is bothering you, and who wants to know how you feel so badly that he will beg you to talk to him about your emotions and tell him all about how you're feeling so he can help, or at least be as supportive as you will let him be. 
I mean, most guys are like that.

He'll know how to put your needs first and be more than willing to sacrifice his time, energy, and effort for your well being, in an attempt to help you see things more clearly, and in a positive light, so that you feel better and have a chance to be happier each day. You'll meet someone who is more comfortable doing nothing with you than I was, and who cares about your future way more than me. Way more, I'm sure.
I'm sure you'll meet someone who cares about family unity and values more than I do, and you'll meet someone who looks forward to, and is better equipped to love, cherish, and care for his children than I am, and he'll definitely be a better father than me, for sure.  

There are plenty of men out there for you to meet that are more self aware, open minded, capable and willing to change and comprise for the betterment of the relationship than I am, and who are more accepting of your friend's and make more of an effort to be a part of their life as well.
You definitely will find someone filled with more excitement and anticipation than I had every time I got home, just from the thought of turning the corner and possibly seeing you standing at my front door, or from surprising me by being home when I walked in. For sure that feeling will be more consistently prevalent and stronger in someone else than it was in me throughout the course of your relationship, and never fade. You won’t ever have to worry about another guy taking all the nice thoughtful things you do to help out for granted, like cook, clean, or come running whenever you're called. Nah, he'll appreciate those things along with all the nicknames and handshakes more than I did long after your honey moon phase is over.
It will be easy to move on and get over me, because I was ONLY a burden, a problem, a hassle, a headache, a negative source in your life who's feelings weren't real at all, who never attempted to express or show how I felt, and actually never really felt any love at all and didn't really care about you in any way to begin with.
I'm sure you're secure with all your decisions and confident about your feelings, and you know deep down in your heart that there is no place for me in your life what so ever, and that you’re absolutely positive that it will be better without me in it.

Saturday, January 7, 2012

Moving On: How To

Mr. A-B,

     I apologize for not getting back to you about your love blog [and commenting] like I said I was going to do, but I have been experiencing the worst break up of my life and not sure if I believe in love any more. I keep reading your blog [on love] and hope for those good things to happen to me but I think I am missing the meanings of it all because it seems I can’t get it right. 

Any suggestions on how to survive love?

Sincerely,

Former Student



    The timing of this email question, from a former student about my age by the way, is very interesting to me because I actually just went through/have recently experienced the worst loss/separation/break-up of my life as well. Break ups, like relationships, are all unique, but there are some common factors, specifically when it comes to how you as an individual can handle them. There is nothing easy about how to handle them, and there is no magic solution to make the pain go away. I don't know the specifics to what your situation consists of, but there are a few general things to keep in mind that I think may help get you through as you attempt to move on.

    No matter the reason for the break up, relationships consist of two people, and it takes two people to make them work…and, believe it or not, to a certain extent it takes two people to end them as well. So it’s important at some point to first take some time and consider how each person involved is feeling about ending things, and understand how each of you views things. Then you have to ask yourself or find out how you alone are going to approach things, depending on your mindset. Are you going to look at it and accept it as a final, permanent loss, and start the journey of moving on accordingly? Or, are you going to hold on to the thought or idea that it’s just a temporary separation or time apart, with the prospect of possibly being together in the future, because of either a) something circumstantial or b) just because you don't want to let go, and I mean really don't want to…because none of us wants to let go of someone we love.
    How are you internalizing/rationalizing “the end”? This is a critical step in terms of moving anywhere. As far as not wanting to let go, sure it’s natural to want to hold on, either because of love, comfort, convenience, circumstance, environment, a list of things can facilitate the emotional attachment and strong bond within a relationship, and timing is everything. But be clear, the initial instinct to hold on is mostly a strong emotional urge not to let go. Logically, rationally, intelligently, and mentally however sometimes we do decide to let go because we know it makes sense, or is healthiest, or "the right thing", etc. At that point, when something we know becomes just as important as something we feel, we begin the struggle to fight what our brain is telling our heart. But as long as your brain and heart are saying the same thing, "I don't want to let go", and your brain sides with your heart, and still 'believes' you want to, should be, or need, to be with the other person…then you’re not ready, and it’s going to be most difficult to move on. It's only when your brain starts to see and believe that you can be/should be/or its best that you move on from what you’ve been, and not be with them, that you can begin the struggle of taming the strong emotions that try to convince you otherwise; strong emotions that we have, and last, thanks to the deep associations we have made in our lives with another person. So figuring out and self reflecting about where you are and where you want to go is really a necessary first step, and a step that may take some time and be painful itself, but the effort needs to consistently be there so that eventually you can make that break through.
    Speaking of associations that lead to strong feelings, the more things in your life stay the same (routine, hobbies, environment, etc) the harder it is going to be to snap your mind out of “the funk” of being heartbroken. This is because you are visually reminded on a daily basis of things in your life that are directly tied to your "past". I think you have to shake it up. Put it this way (and I’m not necessarily suggesting this) when I broke up with my ex, I didn't even want to be in MY house anymore, a place that I thought of as OUR home. So three months later, I sold it! Now that's a little extreme, but extreme times call for extreme measures! Granted I had previously planned on, and been considering a move anyway, but not for another year or so. Oh, I bought a brand new bed as well.
    Now, just because you make a change, or immediately do something different in your life, it doesn’t mean it’s going to be effective or take your pain away, and fix all of your problems. Because of the way focus and perception work in our heads, it’s almost mandatory that we jump start our brains into thinking new, or different thoughts, and mentally changing our own focus, preferable in a more positive, productive direction. To do this is to be mentally proactive and defend from spiraling into a depressed state by getting fixated on things or thoughts that cause us to feel pain.The key to any change, I believe, is that it needs to be a long-term intrinsic lifestyle change and not a short-term external behavioral escape. Escapes can be easy, simple, convenient, effortless, and lazy. Escapes can come in the form of an interpersonal rebound, and latching on to whomever is near you on a regular basis or conveniently waiting close by. They can come in the form of a new activity such as gym classes, or excessively working out to keep busy, and distracted, and channel your energy. Parties, clubs, and drugs are all too commonly used as a temporary fix or change for people ultimately acting in desperation in an attempt to escape the inevitable pain that comes with loss and moving on. These are the same types of people who tend to rely heavily on denial and repression to an unhealthy extent. The problem with escapes is that most people turn to these meaningless temporary things in excess thinking or wanting them to lead to a permanent fix and authentic happiness. But sooner or later, reality calls, you hit that wall, that new person gets old, you burn out at the gym, or even worse in the case of alcohol, drugs, and the wrong crowd.
    Along with figuring out where you are and how you view your situation in the present, as well as attempting to make lasting, meaningful changes in your life, there are some other basic principles that are helpful if consistently applied.
    The main thing to keep in mind is something that I teach and preach in my Psychology classes often, and it’s a fundamental part of my approach to life - we can't control or change anything about other people, only ourselves, and when we try to it creates anxiety. We can’t force them to stay, to decide to care about us, or to make more of an effort to love us. All we CAN do is everything in our power to express our needs and feelings to the other person to the best of our ability. From there, the rest is up to them…and regardless of what they choose to do, at least you can sleep at night knowing YOU did all YOU could do. Knowing this and reminding yourself of this regularly is helpful.
    Also, in terms of being independent (optimistically put) or being alone (negatively put), another strong fact that we lose touch with, forget, or don’t even have the strength to believe in anymore during our darkest hour when we experiencing such a deep level of heartache, hopelessness, and loneliness, is to always know that no matter who comes and goes in your life, as long as you’re living, you are alive…and if you're alive opportunity is alive. Whether it is with him/her again or someone new in an even more special way that you can’t imagine right now, it’s alive.
    It comes down to the power of focus and control. What are we focusing on at every second, of every moment, daily? We have a natural tendency to devote energy (emotionally, mentally, and even physically) to whatever we focus on. That’s why focus is such a powerful thing, and huge key to success and being positive if you ask me. But it can also be painful, depressing, and exhausting when we are focusing on and devoting energy to something or someone we cannot change. Start paying attention to what you’re paying attention to, what telling yourself, and what you’re focusing on.
    By no means do I have all the answers or am I myself ready to start a long-term, serious relationship with someone new tomorrow simply from knowing this. As I like to say, even though it may be simple, that doesn't mean it's easy! No matter who you are, if you truly loved the person, let alone were in love with them, then it will take time, and needs to happen slowly, very slowly. This is mostly important so that you’re not fooled or pulled into something with someone who is not genuine. But time is also necessary to know that you’re not fooling yourself and that new person is not only sincere with how they feel about you, but that they are meaningful in your life and matter to you, and that you really care about them as well. It’s very common for people who are not consciously looking for a rebound to still unconsciously move too fast, and end up finding themselves confused and learning the hard way that they really didn’t care for the new person like they thought they did, and their feelings for them were just misplaced emotions about their past that were ignored, denied, or unresolved and never dealt with. Make an effort not to be that person and put yourself through added heartache because of how you handle the pain of the reality in your world that has been flipped upside down.
Best wishes.

Now read this again, about 10 more times starting from the top...
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